Time and Location

Thursday, 2008-03-06 in #adium-devl

PDT	MDT	CDT	EDT	CEST
6 PM	7 PM	8 PM	9 PM	3 AM

Agenda

1. Roadmap (Eric/Evan)
   • 1.2.x
   • 1.3
2. DVCS Change-over (Peter/Colin)
3. Partial updates / Nightly builds (Colin)
4. SoC (David)
5. Adium for iPhone (Eric)

Action Items

(Anything you want to keep track of and talked about next time)

1. Roadmap
   • Beta on Sunday, Mar 9 (David)
2. GSOC
   • Collect list of mentors (David)
3. DVCS
   • Push up on converter priority, goal of being ready to throw the switch by end of March to evaluate for GSOC08 (Colin & Peter)
4. Partials/Nightlies
   • Investigate smew uploading builds as a stopgap (Colin)
5. iPhone
   • Write iPhone blog post (Peter, Augie, and Eric)
   • Follow up about funding (Evan)
6. General
   • Fix Evan's time machine (Colin)
   • Pester Alan about parental controls (Eric)
   • Clearspace! (Jordan & Colin)

Log

20:14 < edr1084> alright so, 1.2.x
20:14 < edr1084> evands: do you think the yahoo blocking fix is big enough to push .4 sooner?
20:15 < evands> Combined with the other things, yes, I do.  Specifically, so far in .4 we have the Yahoo blocking fix (not as widespread as user reports would make you think, as it requires a contact list with 100+ contacts)
20:15 < evands> we have a double handful of myspace IM fixes
20:15 < evands> including the one for the freeze on launch we get quite a bit of complaint about
20:15 < edr1084> excellent
20:15 < evands> we have a fix for one of the conditions which can cause "MSN people see me as offline!"
20:15 < evands> we have support for incoming and outgoing serverside AIM offline messages
20:16 < evands> (which is actually a data loss issue in 1.2.3 and previous, since we don't receive them AFAIK)
20:16 < austein> yes, you receive them
20:16 < evands> ah, k, cool
20:16 < edr1084> what are you feeling as far as timeline goes?  end of next week too soon?
20:16 < evands> then that's less major, but still a nice new feature
20:16 < jas8522> so beta this weekend, release by the 15th or sooner?
20:17 < austein> Sooner than later would be nice :-) (I put offline messaging in libpurple so a friend could have it on adium)
20:17 < edr1084> austein: not helpful
20:17 < edr1084> err
20:17 < edr1084> sorry
20:17 < edr1084> misread
20:17 < austein> sorry, just had a really terrible meeting...I'll tern the snark level down
20:17 < evands> that sounds like a good timeline to me, jas8522.  I'd love to continue distributing the process. It was really helpful that Catfish_Man got the beta up and running for 1.2.3
20:18 < edr1084> alright cool, let's do that then
20:19 < edr1084> any volunteers?
20:19 < jas8522> milestone now set for the 15th
20:19 < Catfish_Man> I'd be happy to
20:19 < evands> Are there any major issues y'all are seeing in 1.2.4svn which should block that?
20:19  * Catfish_Man has been living on trunk lately, so is not sure
20:19 < edr1084> same.
20:19 < evands> I don't think we should have any regressions, but it'd be nice for either 1.2.4 or 1.2.5 to be the point at which we shift focus back to trunk
20:19 < evands> same.
20:19 < jas8522> evands: only that blist issue ...
20:19 < evands> but I haven't run into problems with the 1.2.4 backports
20:20 < evands> ah, yes, that.  only hits msn users, who aren't real people anyways
20:20 < cbarrett_work> I can build a 1.2.4svn build
20:20 < evands> just kidding ;)
20:20 < cbarrett_work> and test that until the 15th.
20:20 -!- rob-to86_ [n=robertve@p5B10E1EC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #adium-devl
20:20 < evands> cbarrett_work: Cool.
20:20 < evands> cbarrett_work: Is it possible to make the results of buildbot's automatic builds available for our use
20:20 < jas8522> evands: and even then, only some of them... I use MSN for most communication and have not had this issue
20:20 < evands> ?
20:20 < Catfish_Man> evands: you would be kidding less if you'd been on #adium lately :(
20:20 < evands> Catfish_Man: fun and games from the script kiddie crowd?
20:20 < Catfish_Man> nah
20:21 < Catfish_Man> just a stream of MSN users
20:21 < Catfish_Man> all with problems
20:21 < evands> the key with MSN users is that you have to keep them from getting on a SOAPbox
20:21 < Catfish_Man> all convinced that nobody uses anything but msn
20:21 < evands> heh
20:21 < evands> Makes sense
20:21 < jas8522> to be fair, our own stats show MSN and AIM neck and neck
20:21 < cbarrett_work> evands: Just uploading them to somewhere on the server? yeah, but the whole nightly stuff is designed to just do that in an automatic fashion, etc
20:22 < cbarrett_work> jas8522: "neck and neck" has them both at 20-30%. That's nowhere near "nothing but MSN" :P
20:22 < evands> cbarrett_work: the whole nightly stuff would be better.  I wouldn't waste time on an interim measure.. was just curious if there was a simple buildbot option to show a "download this build" link or something
20:22 < edr1084> we can discuss that in the nightly section ;)
20:23 < cbarrett_work> Yeah.
20:23 < cbarrett_work> It might be pretty easy.
20:23 < evands> I wondered at why smew was building more slowly than usual for me with the last beta, and then I realized that I had just committed the plist change for the version... so buildbot was doing its own full build at the same time
20:23 < evands> anyways, that's neither here nor there
20:23 < Catfish_Man> ideally I'd like to have releases not be built by us
20:23 < cbarrett_work> Catfish_Man: Agreed.
20:23 < Catfish_Man> at jive we just pull the latest build off the continual integration server, test it, and ship it
20:24 < Catfish_Man> ...when CI is working, anyway
20:24 < cbarrett_work> I guess we're in the nightly section now, de facto
20:24 < cbarrett_work> So I'll just take over.
20:24 < evands> Hold that thought one sec
20:24 < evands> let's finish roadmap
20:24 < edr1084> yes please
20:24 < cbarrett_work> Ah, thought we were done
20:24 < evands> A reasonable thought
20:24 < edr1084> not quite
20:24 < evands> given our collective ADD :)
20:24 < cbarrett_work> heheh
20:24 < edr1084> so Catfish_Man beta this weekend?
20:24 < Catfish_Man> yup
20:24 < Catfish_Man> how's Sunday sound? got nothing planned then
20:24 < edr1084> good good
20:25 < edr1084> wfm
20:25 < evands> perfect.  changelog should be easy to put together... on that topic, did I send to adium-devl how to get a shared document up on smew for SEE work?
20:25 < edr1084> I don't recall
20:25 < Catfish_Man> not that I recall, but gmail imap has been amazingly flaky for me lately
20:25 < cbarrett_work> I don't think so.
20:25 < evands> would have been a while ago
20:25 < evands> when smew first went live
20:25 < cbarrett_work> But I figured out how.
20:25 < elliott_> I don't recall seeing it.
20:26 < edr1084> might as well send again
20:26 < cbarrett_work> throw a document in some folder, applescript should catch it and launch it in SEE
20:26 < evands> precisely
20:26 < evands> and share it as the same time
20:26 < cbarrett_work> Yup
20:26 < cbarrett_work> Pretty snazzy
20:26 < evands> and an idle loop applescript tells SEE to save periodically
20:26 < cbarrett_work> Niiice.
20:26 < cbarrett_work> Applescript for the win.
20:26 < edr1084> alright, sounds like we're good on 1.2.4 then
20:26 < edr1084> 1.3
20:26 < Catfish_Man> I should write a smew remote control plugin for adium ;)
20:27 < edr1084> elliott has the get info overhaul in there
20:27 < evands> so as I mentioned, 1.2.4 or 1.2.5 should be the end of our 1.2.x focus, I hope
20:27 < edr1084> agreed
20:27 < evands> we have point-release oriented stuff on the roadmap past that timeframe, but that's fine; those shift to 1.3.1 and so on
20:27 < elliott_> evands: Did expanding meta-contacts get removed?
20:27 < evands> No, why?
20:27 < Catfish_Man> I have two things in trunk that are "really annoying" to me, so I'll hit those first
20:28 < evands> elliott_: Not intentionally, anyways
20:28 < elliott_> I got some complaints about people not being able to work with the new Get Info because of metas not expanding
20:28 < elliott_> Peter, in particular, complained about it.
20:28 < Catfish_Man> elliott: seems to work fine here
20:28 < elliott_> and I told him to expand the contact
20:28 < elliott_> and he had no idea what I was talking about
20:28 < elliott_> and couldn't do it
20:28 < elliott_> or something.
20:28 < Catfish_Man> we should make it more obvious thouh
20:28 < evands> Well, it's not perfectly obvious
20:28 < Catfish_Man> *though
20:28 < elliott_> Right, it still needs work.
20:28 < elliott_> Just asking.
20:28 < evands> and the Get Info window should probably interact with it more directly, as well
20:28 < edr1084> I stumbled upon it by accident actually
20:29 < elliott_> I can take over that, as apart of the Get Info stuff, which I hope to get back to pretty quick here.
20:29 < evands> elliott_: excellent.  As you recall, what's there was mostly proof-of-concept I did while we were talking about it
20:29 < elliott_> Any feedback on the Get Info stuff aside from the bugs filed against me?
20:29 < elliott_> Right.
20:29 < Catfish_Man> other than the expanding intuitiveness, it seems fine
20:29 < evands> the Accounts pane has some bugs
20:30 < jas8522> agreed... I didn't know that was there either :S
20:30 < elliott_> Yeah, I had been meaning to get to those.
20:30 < elliott_> I filed bugs against myself as reminders, but haven't gotten back to them.
20:30 < jas8522> perhaps just an arrow beside the contact? 
20:30 < evands> elliott_: (b) Under the EMC tab, it doesn't correctly reflect groups -- it always shows a buddy as under the first group in the list. However, if you click, you can move a buddy to another group, but it won't be reflected.
20:30 < Catfish_Man> gah. I can't figure out where we pass -Wno-long-double to gcc :/
20:31 < elliott_> Right, but it does occur correct?
20:31 < elliott_> i.e. the buddy gets moved
20:31 < evands> elliott_: It's got a panel header but closes with cmd-W, which doesn't seem fully standard
20:31 < elliott_> the table view is never updated.
20:31 < elliott_> Pretty sure panels close with cmd+w?
20:31 < evands> elliott_: Not sure. That was a paste form an email I got.
20:31 < edr1084> I'd like to have at least one other big feature in there for 1.3 but I've not heard anything from alan on the parental controls
20:31 < evands> elliott_: Open the Font panel as a quick example
20:31 < elliott_> Yeah, when inspectors are selected they will close with cmd+w
20:31 < edr1084> Catfish_Man: the guy who was working on the cl searching, how close would you guess that is?
20:32 < evands> but inspector may be different
20:32 < elliott_> it depends on whether it is active or not
20:32 < jas8522> he just got back to us on that - said he might be able to finish it soon
20:32 < Catfish_Man> ah found it
20:32 < evands> fair enough :)
20:32 < Catfish_Man> edr1084: easily doable for 1.3
20:32 < elliott_> if the inspector/panel is actually selected and is the key windows, cmd+w will close it.
20:32 < elliott_> window*
20:32 < evands> Right.  I rescind the comment - just tried that in Xcode
20:32 < jas8522> yes - needs to be specifically selected... opening it isn't good enough
20:32 < edr1084> Catfish_Man: if possible I think that might be a nice feature to go in alongside get info
20:33 < edr1084> keep 1.3 from being a one trick pony ;)
20:33 < evands> elliott_: One other thing I'd note is that with an alias set, it's not easy to see the person's actual screen name
20:33 < elliott_> Yeah, did that guy ever come out of hibernation?
20:33 < Catfish_Man> he did
20:33 < elliott_> evands: Ah, right. 
20:34 < elliott_> evands: Clicking on the alias to swtich between screen name and alias name work for you?
20:34 < evands> Yeah, good thought
20:34 < elliott_> Consider it done.
20:34 < edr1084> I'll try to get in touch with alan again and see if he's got anything with PC
20:34  * Catfish_Man finds and removes another -Wno-long-double
20:34 < edr1084> but I won't hold my breath at this point
20:34 < cbarrett_work> Is that a boredzoism?
20:34 < cbarrett_work> Why are we doing -Wno-long-double?
20:34 < rob-to86_> [alangh was in this channel today]
20:35 < evands> another thought for that space is that right clicking on the person's name... or perhaps anywhere not otherwise specified... could show the contextual menu for the contact
20:35 < Catfish_Man> cbarrett_work: no clue. It's fine, just gcc-llvm doesn't like it
20:35 < cbarrett_work> Why are we using gcc-llvm? :|
20:35 < Catfish_Man> I am, because I'm interested :D
20:35 < cbarrett_work> Curiosity killed the cat. Stay the course!
20:35 < evands> elliott_: And hope you weren't upset that I made a couple changes I had in mind myself - full-size profile textview without the separate status stuff, and resizability
20:36  * evands claps his hands
20:36 < edr1084> is there anything else we should be looking to hit with 1.3?
20:36 < Catfish_Man> I need to fix or remove my /me changes :/
20:36 < elliott_> evands: not sure how I feel about resizeability.
20:36 < elliott_> but I guess it can't hurt.
20:36 < jas8522> I'll create some of the 1.3.x milestones soon to spread a few things out
20:36 < Catfish_Man> I like resizing the inspector
20:36 < evands> I think we should avoid falling victim to the massive release syndrome which kept some previous major releases (particularly 1.1) held up for a long time
20:37 < evands> elliott_: I think it's necessary for the profile tab
20:37 < elliott_> yeah like having 1.
20:37 -!- rob-to86 [n=robertve@p5B10E1EC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:37 < elliott_> 1.2.12
20:37 < Catfish_Man> also I want to fix the awful awful performance problems with joining large groupchats now
20:37 < elliott_> or something :P
20:37 < elliott_> I think we should really limit ourselves to three bug releases
20:37 < elliott_> unless absolutely necessary
20:37 < elliott_> i.e. 1.2.3
20:37 < evands> elliott_: Oh, one more thing: Your changes broke the rightmost text column in the Contact Alerts (events) views
20:37 < Catfish_Man> eh. I think 'hardcoding' that limit is silly
20:37 < evands> they are in a larger font and don't wrap to multiple lines
20:38 -!- rob-to86_ is now known as rob-to86
20:38 < elliott_> You mean the new rightmost text column or the old rightmost text column, which has been deleted? :P
20:38 -!- Luckeychild [n=Luckey@cpe-75-184-112-247.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #adium-devl
20:38 < evands> Yeah, I prefer "every month, or when enough major fixes have been made to warrant it" 
20:38 < evands> elliott_: umm... everything to the right of the name of the event.
20:39 < elliott_> Ok, i'll take a look at it
20:39 < elliott_> Events and Advanced got the least amount of work
20:39 < elliott_> mostly because I need more time go back and refactor a lot of the original code
20:39 < edr1084> shall we move on?
20:39 < elliott_> that keeps them populated.
20:39 < elliott_> sure thing.
20:39 < edr1084> kk
20:39 < edr1084> next up
20:39 < edr1084> switch to hg
20:39 < edr1084> colin?
20:39 < evands> elliott_: http://evands.penguinmilitia.net/see.png
20:40 < cbarrett_work> Since peter's not here(?)
20:40 < cbarrett_work> I'll take this.
20:40 < edr1084> peter was telling me a bit about the importer work, care to give us an overview?
20:40 -!- g-Off [n=g-Off@bas2-ottawa23-1128665458.dsl.bell.ca] has quit []
20:41 < elliott_> evands: got it.
20:43 < edr1084> cbarrett_work: it's ok if it's in multiple parts... ;)
20:43 < cbarrett_work> The VCS importer is about 75% finished -- we both got really busy with other things, haven't  touched it lately.
20:43 < cbarrett_work> (Sorry someone walked into my cube)
20:43 -!- g-Off [n=g-Off@bas2-ottawa23-1128665458.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #adium-devl
20:43 < cbarrett_work> Anyway
20:43 < evands> (ouch)
20:43 < cbarrett_work> It's nearing completion -- if Peter and I really knock heads it could probably be done or at least much further along next week.
20:44 < elliott_> and i think the timeline for the switch was around after SoC right?
20:45 < cbarrett_work> I don't remember a timeline other than "eventually"
20:45 < edr1084> I like the idea of waiting until after SoC
20:45 < Catfish_Man> yeah
20:45 < edr1084> that way we can get things properly documented
20:45 < Catfish_Man> if we're going to screw stuff up, it should be when we don't have students ;)
20:45 < edr1084> and augie offered to handle branch merging with svn 1.5
20:45 < cbarrett_work> I dislike that idea, i think SoC could really benefit from dvcs. Also, that's quite a ways away.
20:47 < evands> Part of the clusterfuck post-SoC has been from merging problems
20:47 < evands> and cheap branching would be really helpful, as well
20:47 < edr1084> my point is, I'd like things to be well documented and familiar to all involved before we attempt to teach it to others
20:47 < edr1084> if that can be done, great
20:48 < evands> edr1084: I agree.  If we're not comfortable with it, that won't be appropriate
20:48 < evands> Let's see where we stand when the tools are ready and the infrastructure in place except for actually having pulled the switch and declared that future commits go to the new repository
20:48 < edr1084> sounds good
20:48 < evands> I really hope it's soon enough that we can use it for SoC -- and for ourselves
20:49 < cbarrett_work> if me & peter move quickly and make this a top priority, I think we could get to that point before March is over.
20:49 < cbarrett_work> I'll ping him and we can talk.
20:49 < evands> Cool
20:49 < cbarrett_work> Any other DVCS things?
20:50 < edr1084> I think that was about it, just getting caught up on it
20:50 < evands> I imagine there will be once we're playing with the tools themselves.. but we covered a lot of DVCS things previously :)
20:51 < cbarrett_work> *nod*
20:51 < edr1084> alright, I know elliott_ is trying to get out of here so does anyone care if we briefly discuss the iphone next?
20:51 < cbarrett_work> Heh.
20:51 < elliott_> :-)
20:51 < cbarrett_work> Sure.
20:52 < evands> Sure
20:52 < elliott_> Sure.
20:52 < evands> I have to flee fairly soon, too
20:52 < edr1084> alright, so obviously there's going to be an iphone version of adium... whether we do it or not
20:52 < edr1084> is this something we'd like to officially pursue?
20:52 < Catfish_Man> heck yeah
20:52 < edr1084> :)
20:53 < Catfish_Man> I don't know *how* exactly
20:53 < Catfish_Man> but we should
20:53 < cbarrett_work> I would be inclined to say no actually.
20:53 < BigBrownChunx> what about adium for iphone as a SoC thing?
20:53 < edr1084> I don't want to see us get sidetracked by it
20:53 < edr1084> BigBrownChunx: definitely a possibility
20:53 < elliott_> BigBrownChunx: Definitely too much work for one person I think.
20:53 < edr1084> heh
20:53 < BigBrownChunx> definitely ;)
20:54 < cbarrett_work> There are some serious limitations on the phone. Your process gets 64MB of memory. If the phone sleeps or if you switch apps, your app stops running.
20:54 < evands> Here's the real question: What would Adium for iPhone mean?
20:54 < evands> cbarrett_work: That very last bit isn't true
20:54 < evands> an app can run after a switch
20:54 < elliott_> ^
20:54 < evands> The rest is though
20:54 < Catfish_Man> cbarrett_work: also, that's 1.x limitations
20:54 < evands> or at least, it could on the jailbroken stuff.
20:54 < elliott_> I guarantee AIM's app doesn't sleep when you switch stuff cbarrett_work 
20:54 < evands> But my question above is more important than the implementation details, I think.
20:55 < cbarrett_work> AIM's app is a mockup and a demo :P
20:55 < rob-to86> without being part of SoC maybe one could assist some non-Adium developer in getting it done
20:55 < cbarrett_work> I'd put money on that just being a webview :P
20:55 < Catfish_Man> evands: yeah, it is a good question
20:55 < Catfish_Man> it seems obvious to me that most of our customization stuff would be out of place and unnecessary
20:55 < cbarrett_work> +1
20:55 < edr1084> if we do it, I'd like to see simplicity rather than features out the ass
20:55 < rob-to86> "Adium Lite" ;)
20:55 < edr1084> more or less
20:55 < rob-to86> c @ The_Tick
20:56 < Catfish_Man> rob-to86_: his was very very different
20:56 < edr1084> he didn't want a contact list or anything like that
20:56 < edr1084> but anyway
20:56 < rob-to86> ok
20:56 < edr1084> I just kinda wanted to get a feel for where people stood on that
20:56 < Catfish_Man> so I guess the question is this: do we think we can do iPhone IM better than everyone else?
20:57 < Catfish_Man> 'cause if not, we should just nurture another project
20:57 < cbarrett_work> I don't think so -- I think we should concentrate on the desktop.
20:57 < elliott_> Well
20:57 < elliott_> I think we have one advantage.
20:57 < evands> It's a big one.
20:57 < jas8522> I agree with Colin... there are two projects for that already 
20:57 < elliott_> Right.
20:57 < evands> Neither are usable clients at present
20:57 < elliott_> both of those projects, however.
20:57 < Newtylicious> I think the question more: do we think we can do iPhone IM better than everyone else, without harming the development of the desktop Adium?
20:57 < cbarrett_work> ^
20:57 < elliott_> We constructed without any knowledge of the phone.
20:57 < elliott_> Were*
20:57 < Catfish_Man> I'm unconvinced that jailbreak-based projects will be hugely useful in the new iPhone world
20:57 < evands> Yup
20:58 < elliott_> I think at their core, they have a lot of work to do.
20:58 < elliott_> To get to a place that we could get to with relative ease.
20:58 < elliott_> Since we would be starting from day 1 with a ton of knowledge.
20:58 < cbarrett_work> I worry that our resources are spread too thin even with just Adium itself. Adium on the phone would only hurt things.
20:58 < rob-to86> I think the coding should definitely be done by somebody else
20:58 < rob-to86> it's too much
20:58 < Newtylicious> Yup. I have the same feeling
20:58 < evands> In terms of actual code, very little would carry over... and in terms of development effort, the same is true
20:58 < Catfish_Man> evands: I'm not so sure
20:59 < elliott_> I wouldn't go that far.
20:59 < Catfish_Man> anything that's not appkit should be the same
20:59 < elliott_> ^
20:59 < elliott_> We may have to trim it down, but some stuff could be reused
20:59 < elliott_> I suspect that the entire libpurple bridge would run just fine.
20:59 < elliott_> which would be big.
20:59 < Catfish_Man> of course, that also raises the question of whether reusing our internals is even a good idea
20:59 < elliott_> in fact, I even think Apollo ported some of our bridge to the device.
20:59 < Catfish_Man> the libpurple stuff yes
20:59 < Catfish_Man> but the contact controller and all of that? perhaps not
20:59 < cbarrett_work> I really worry about starving Adium development.
21:00 < rob-to86> me too
21:00 < edr1084> cbarrett_work: right, that's why I said, I don't want people to get sidetracked by this
21:00 -!- pblair [n=pblair@c3.phx.nearlyfreespeech.net] has joined #adium-devl
21:00 < edr1084> everyone has a fair amount of application ADD as it is
21:01 -!- Wengero_ [n=wengero@modemcable139.48-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #adium-devl
21:01 < Catfish_Man> ok. I suggest we take a wait and see approach, and if something good comes up, we can throw some weight behind it
21:01 < Catfish_Man> if not, we can reevaluate
21:02 < edr1084> if we can do it without hurting our bread and butter, I'm all for it, but if people are going to run off and only work on the iphone because it's new and cool...
21:02 < edr1084> not good at all
21:02 < rob-to86> perhaps there is an old Adium developer  who hasn't been interested in working for Adium for some time but knows about its code and might be motivated to create an "Adium for iPhone?
21:02 < evands> *chuckles*
21:02 < cbarrett_work> I'd rather have them be working on Adium itself.
21:02 < cbarrett_work> Also I'm not old :s
21:02 < elliott_> Again, to do it right, you really need at least a few people
21:03 < elliott_> it's going to be a good amount of work
21:03 < evands> I've been pinged by someone who sounded like he might be wanting to invest money to get an Adium for iPhone off the ground
21:03 < Catfish_Man> heh
21:03 < Catfish_Man> ok, I need to head out soon
21:03 < rob-to86> cbarrett_work: I had nobody specific in mind :P
21:03 < Catfish_Man> could we do SoC now and then come back to this?
21:03 < edr1084> soc quick Catfish_Man ?
21:03 < edr1084> yeah
21:03 < evands> I'm going to follow up on that; if there were funding, it might be a better move, as that could encourage both
21:03 < elliott_> yeah it's fine
21:03 < cbarrett_work> evands: +1
21:03 < Catfish_Man> ok. I've submitted our applicatoin
21:03 < Catfish_Man> *application
21:03 < elliott_> evands: Follow up on that and I guess we can discuss it via list
21:04 < Catfish_Man> I'll need a list of everyone willing to mentor
21:04 < Catfish_Man> so that I can add that to it
21:04 < elliott_> I'm out.
21:04 < evands> elliott_: I will. 
21:04 < elliott_> I can't mentor again this summer.
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21:04 < Catfish_Man> not a list right now, I will forget
21:04 < elliott_> as I will be busy as all hell. :P
21:04 < Catfish_Man> just email me or put it on trac or something
21:04 < elliott_> just sayin' :
21:04 < elliott_> bye!
21:04 -!- elliott_ [n=elliott@cpe-24-175-74-227.tx.res.rr.com] has quit []
21:04 < Catfish_Man> durin42 has volunteered to handle merging if we're still on svn
21:04 < cbarrett_work> I guess partials are last then?
21:05 < Catfish_Man> any other questions?
21:05 < Catfish_Man> (about soc)
21:05 < cbarrett_work> Catfish_Man: where do we send our names for this list of mentors?
21:05 < edr1084> I think we should come up with some more ideas to fill out the page a bit
21:05 < cbarrett_work> Are we still planning on doubling up?
21:05 < evands> I think we have some discussion to have about improving process and setting standards
21:05 -!- boredzo [n=macrulez@growl/Mac-arena] has joined #adium-devl
21:05 < cbarrett_work> (+9000 to doubling up)
21:05 < Catfish_Man> yes, I believe we should double up on mentors
21:05 < evands> and the current page isn't a particularly good set of ideas to present to the world
21:06 < Catfish_Man> I'm going to be replacing the QS integration with a link to a rant this weekend
21:06 < edr1084> Catfish_Man: do we have any idea how many slots we might be offered?
21:06 < Catfish_Man> I've already gotten two students all fired up about it ;)
21:06 < Catfish_Man> edr1084: probably around 5-6 again
21:06 < boredzo> Did we talk about the DVCS thing yet?
21:06 < Catfish_Man> which is more than we need
21:06 < Catfish_Man> boredzo: yeah
21:06 < cbarrett_work> boredzo, yes, hold on, we can come back to it.
21:06 < Catfish_Man> edr1084: basically, I expect that we can accept mentors/2 students
21:06 < Catfish_Man> so, code review
21:07 < Catfish_Man> do we want to go all webkit/mozilla style and require review-for-commit for students?
21:07 < cbarrett_work> I think we should consider it.
21:07 < boredzo> Nah. That's what we have a mailing list for. And branches.
21:07 < edr1084> did we get anywhere with setting up review board?
21:07 < Catfish_Man> boredzo: review after the fact is different
21:07 < boredzo> I read Matt's commits as he made them, and that worked fine.
21:07 < cbarrett_work> edr1084: Augie flaked out on setting it up.
21:07 < Catfish_Man> this is "no, you can't commit that until x y and z are fixed"
21:07 < boredzo> Catfish_Man: I understand that. My point is that it works just fine; we don't need to review *before* commit.
21:08 < Catfish_Man> possibly
21:08 < cbarrett_work> boredzo: for your student -- other students did not do as well because their mentors were not as vigilant.
21:08 < boredzo> Keeping in mind, of course, that a VCS that made such a thing easier would help change my mind.
21:08 < boredzo> cbarrett: So, get on the svn list and be more vigilant? :)
21:08 < evands> We do, however, need to be much less laissez faire
21:08 < cbarrett_work> I *am* on the svn list. :|
21:08 < cbarrett_work> And I wasn't a mentor last year.
21:08 < evands> At least until awesomeness has been confirmed with real code
21:08 < boredzo> Slacker. ;)
21:09 < boredzo> </reference>
21:09 < cbarrett_work> evands: meaning?
21:09 < Catfish_Man> laissez faire == hands off
21:09 < cbarrett_work> I know what laissez faire means :P
21:09 < Catfish_Man> shit, bus in 4 minutes
21:09 < evands> In many cases, branches have run their course
21:09 < Catfish_Man> must go
21:09 < edr1084> how much more work would that be for mentors to review BEFORE commit?
21:09 < evands> Catfish_Man: cya
21:09 < cbarrett_work> I meant what was he talking about.
21:09  * boredzo waves to Catfish_Man
21:09 < Catfish_Man> I'll read the notes later
21:09 < edr1084> later cfm
21:09 < Catfish_Man> edr1084: I'm in favor of it, I think
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21:09 < boredzo> edr1084: With SVN: Student must svn diff | bzip2 and send the result to the mentor.
21:10 < boredzo> Via FT or email.
21:10 < cbarrett_work> boredzo: or we'd have RB set up and the could use post-review
21:10 < evands> cbarrett_work: I just meant that I think students have been given free reign, and generally that mentors have been good about answering questions but that otherwise students have been trusted to be doing things right
21:10 < boredzo> Does that work with SVN?
21:10 < evands> and that as we have more experience in both coding in general and in the project itself
21:10 < cbarrett_work> boredzo: yes.
21:10 < evands> if we're going to consider this a teaching experience, there should be active teaching
21:10 < cbarrett_work> evands: I agree.
21:11 < evands> looking through and *nitpicking* as appropriate
21:11 < evands> not to be mean, but to help people get better
21:11 < cbarrett_work> Agreed.
21:11 < cbarrett_work> I think perhaps having 2 mentors can help with that.
21:11 < cbarrett_work> Mentors can discuss.
21:11 < boredzo> evands: OK, but do we really need to do that before it's committed to the branch?
21:11 < evands> I don't think so, boredzo 
21:11 < edr1084> my only concern would be making sure it's not a massive timesink for the mentors since most everyone has real jobs to be dealing with unlike the students
21:11 < cbarrett_work> It's way too easy to let thing slide by and miss them.
21:11 < evands> I htink the precommit review would be too much of a timesink
21:12 < evands> and too much of a bottleneck
21:12 < evands> BUT
21:12 < boredzo> Doing it before commit shouldn't take any more time for the mentor than after.
21:12 < edr1084> no?
21:12 < boredzo> But it will postpone code for the student (when using svn).
21:12 < boredzo> edr1084: Time to review a diff is constant.
21:12 < evands> except that it becomes a bottleneck for the student
21:12 < evands> not a timesnk, you're right
21:12 < boredzo> evands: Exactly. What I just said. :)
21:12 < evands> :)
21:12 < boredzo> 19:11:57: <boredzo> But it will postpone code for the student (when using svn).
21:13 < evands> ON a mental lag, sorry.
21:13 < evands> Maybe we should talk about weekly stoppoints
21:13 < edr1084> I personally hate giving people an excuse to sit around and wait
21:13 < evands> yes
21:13 < evands> we've seen that go poorly before
21:13 < boredzo> edr1084: Which people?
21:13 < edr1084> boredzo: in general
21:14 < evands> once each week at least, mentor should give specific feedback on commits *to the adium-devl mailing list*
21:14 < evands> and student should reply there
21:14 < evands> it becomes a lesson in public code review and egoless coding
21:14 < edr1084> I'd rather put someone in a position to continue working rather than feel like they need to wait to be told how they did on one thing before moving on
21:14 < cbarrett_work> evands: Agreed.
21:14 < boredzo> How did I know that there'd already be a question about Adium for iPhone?
21:14 < evands> and we make it clear beforehand: If this isn't done, we won't pass the midterm and won't pass the final 
21:14 < cbarrett_work> boredzo: hold off on that, you can read the log later.
21:14 < evands> which means no $$, which should be an incentive
21:14 < boredzo> We should write a blog post in SEE after the meeting.
21:15 < cbarrett_work> btw, what do you think about double mentors, evan?
21:15 < evands> I like it
21:15 < cbarrett_work> What about double mentors, but each mentor has two students?
21:15 < boredzo> What's the advantage of double mentors?
21:15 < edr1084> evands: speaking of the blog, I also think we should require our students to make public updates
21:15 < evands> edr1084: that's been the case in the past... except with very loose enforcement
21:16 < evands> cbarrett_work: that's interesting. I need to think about that
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21:16 < evands> I was going to say that about half our projects have done really well each year... but I think that's actually had more to do with the students than the mentors, though good mentorship has been a positive factor
21:16 < cbarrett_work> (Is someone taking down action items, btw? If not, I can)
21:16 < evands> double mentoring would also mean that we have less shots at getting great students on board
21:17 < edr1084> how so?
21:17 < evands> because we'll be lowering our student count
21:17 < evands> less shots, statistically speaking I mean
21:17 < evands> though not half the shot, because we'll still be taking the top-rated candidates
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21:18 < edr1084> unless we went with cbarrett_work's suggestion of the double double
21:18 < evands> right.
21:19 < boredzo> ~In-n-Out/In-n-Out/That's what a hamburger's/all about~
21:19 < evands> Oops, 10:15?  I have to join the running crowd
21:19 < edr1084> later evands 
21:19 < cbarrett_work> Alright well
21:19  * boredzo waves
21:19 < cbarrett_work> quick update on partials
21:19 < edr1084> sure
21:19 < evands> cbarrett_work: please make an action item of fixing my time machine
21:20 < cbarrett_work> heh
21:20 < boredzo> evands: Did you forget the crystals?
21:20 < evands> boredzo: Never
21:21 < cbarrett_work> I'm sitting on a complete diff generator, and a nearly done applier. Need to write some testcases but they seem to work fine in manual testing I've done. I need to hack sparkle itself.
21:21 < cbarrett_work> But that doesn't seem too bad.
21:21 < evands> cool!
21:21 < cbarrett_work> It might be worth getting smew uploading its builds as a stopgap for now.
21:21 < cbarrett_work> evands: yeah it was really not too bad, it took a week. That was in January.
21:21 < cbarrett_work> :S
21:21 < evands> classic cbarrett_work work ;)
21:22 < cbarrett_work> Yeah, seriousl.
21:22 < cbarrett_work> Finish the hard 90% in a week
21:22 < cbarrett_work> take three months to do the easy 10%
21:22  * cbarrett_work cires
21:22 < cbarrett_work> cries, even
21:22 -!- pblair [n=pblair@c3.phx.nearlyfreespeech.net] has joined #adium-devl
21:22 < cbarrett_work> Anyway, so I'm gonna push that lower for the DVCS importer
21:23 < cbarrett_work> since it would be sweet to have that stuff done before GSOC
21:23 < edr1084> so would smew be uploading to cachefly, or would it be serving itself?
21:23 < cbarrett_work> uploading to adiumx.com, most likely.
21:23 < cbarrett_work> Or it could serve itself.
21:23 < evands> That's what she said?
21:23 < cbarrett_work> Would rather not overload it with apache running too though.
21:23 < cbarrett_work> har har
21:23 < boredzo> Yeah. I'm going to finish writing the converter tests tonight/tomorrow. Preferably right after we write that iPhone blog post.
21:24 < evands> It could upload to cachefly
21:24 < cbarrett_work> evands: Can we get directory listings and such on cachefly too?
21:24 < evands> cbarrett_work: You can ftp to it
21:24 < evands> You can't ssh or telnet to it so far as I know
21:24 < cbarrett_work> I meant from a web interface perspective.
21:24 < evands> does that answer your question?
21:24 < evands> ah
21:24 < evands> no
21:25 < evands> as far as I know
21:25 < cbarrett_work> Uploading to adiumx.com means we just put them in a directory and done :P
21:25 < edr1084> ...and then it hits digg and we lose adiumx.com
21:25 < cbarrett_work> edr: could password the directory.
21:25 < edr1084> yeah, we definitely need something
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21:25 < evands> Alright, 'night kids :)
21:25 < boredzo> cbarrett: Somebody will put the password in the digg description, or in a comment.
21:25 < cbarrett_work> (i.e. like we did with the crash reporter)
21:26 < boredzo> evands: 'Night.
21:26 < edr1084> se ya evands 
21:26 < cbarrett_work> 'night evan
21:26  * edr1084 has been dealing with overloaded servers dying all week
21:26 < edr1084> so I'd like to avoid that here if possible :)
21:27 < proton> the ADC webmasters have been dealing with one for a while too :)
21:27 < cbarrett_work> Here's the AI's I've taken:
21:27 < cbarrett_work>  - Beta on Sunday, Mar 9 (David)
21:27 < cbarrett_work>  - Push up on converter priority, goal of being ready to throw the switch by end of March to evaluate for GSOC08 (Colin & Peter)
21:27 < cbarrett_work>  - Fix Evan's time machine (Colin)
21:27 < cbarrett_work>  - Write iPhone blog post (?)
21:27 < edr1084> I'm going to be pestering alan about parental controls
21:28 < cbarrett_work> Anyone remember any othrs?
21:28 < cbarrett_work> *others
21:28 < edr1084> ^
21:28 < edr1084> I doubt he's ready to go with it, but you never quite know with him
21:28 < edr1084> his original deadline had been last month, so we'll see
21:29 < BigBrownChunx> What's going into the iPhone blog post?
21:29 < BigBrownChunx> should it ask for volunteers to put adium on iphone? it could recruit more devels to work on adium itself?
21:29 < boredzo> BigBrownChunx: We haven't thought about it yet.
21:29 < boredzo> I haven't even opened SEE yet.
21:30 < BigBrownChunx> see?
21:30 < boredzo> We're still doing the meeting. :P
21:30 < boredzo> SubEthaEdit.
21:30 < BigBrownChunx> ok
21:30 < edr1084> boredzo: we did discuss it briefly before you came in
21:30 < boredzo> edr1084: What was found? (Or maybe I should open SEE and you can paste the log)
21:31 < edr1084> boredzo: basically the biggest concern was cannibalizing adium development
21:32 < edr1084> but evan had also gotten some interested from possible financial backers
21:32 < edr1084> interest*
21:32 < BigBrownChunx> I'm also interested in working on an iPhone version of Adium
21:32 < edr1084> there are definitely people wanting to work on it, but the issue becomes whether we should be sanctioning it or not
21:32 < boredzo> Eh. I have an idea that the front end is going to be completely new anyway, since we're not going to be using AIGradient or anything.
21:33 < edr1084> we'd definitely have some hacking and slashing to do
21:33  * durin42 returns
21:33 < boredzo> Not like I've looked at the API docs, but my understanding of it is that it's a huge change. After all, there's no QuickTime, no Quartz, etc.
21:33 < cbarrett_work> There is Quartz.
21:33 < durin42> There is CoreAudio.
21:33 < cbarrett_work> There's just no AppKit.
21:33 < boredzo> Quartz as in CG*?
21:33 < cbarrett_work> CG is there.
21:33 < boredzo> durin42: Core Audio is not QuickTime.
21:34 < durin42> boredzo: Right, but we can implement CA solutions and use them both places.
21:34 < cbarrett_work> In fact there all the AppKit drawing functions and structures have been burninated.
21:34 < boredzo> Yay, we get to rewrite sound again!
21:34 < rob-to86> Colloquy's on the iPhone already...
21:34 < boredzo> And this time using an undocumented API!
21:34 < edr1084> to be honest... sounds would probably be one of the first things I chopped out....
21:34 < durin42> I'm with edr1084, really.
21:34 < cbarrett_work> Alright chilun
21:34 < boredzo> rob-to86: Using the unofficial SDK, probably. We never went with that.
21:34 < cbarrett_work> AIs are here
21:34 < cbarrett_work> http://trac.adiumx.com/wiki/AdiumMeetings/2008-03-06
21:34 < edr1084> cut it back to one or two defaults
21:34 < rob-to86> yes
21:34 < cbarrett_work> Add more as you see fit
21:34 < boredzo> edr1084: It would be late on my to-do list, mostly because of the rewriting.
21:35 < rob-to86> boredzo: true, but both projects could help each other now, couldn't they?
21:35 < boredzo> Maybe.
21:36 < edr1084> like I mentioned before, if we do it, I think simplicity will be key
21:37 < edr1084> or should rather