Adium

Time and Location

Thursday, 2008-01-17 in #adium-devl

PDTMDTCDTEDTCEST
6 PM7 PM8 PM9 PM3 AM

Agenda

  1. Get Info Inspector (elliott)
  2. vv-updates (elliott)
  3. Where's 1.2.2 going?
  4. Where's 1.3 going?

Attendance

Log

[2008-01-18 03:01:50 +0100] <edr1084> alangh's here, we can definitely start! ;)
[2008-01-18 03:01:59 +0100] <alangh> Hey, I heard that!
[2008-01-18 03:02:00 +0100] <elliott> hal2k: alangh edr1084 pblair proton 
[2008-01-18 03:02:21 +0100] <hal2k> is listening
[2008-01-18 03:02:23 +0100] <pblair> hello.
[2008-01-18 03:03:35 +0100] <elliott> ok
[2008-01-18 03:04:56 +0100] <edr1084> that works
[2008-01-18 03:05:13 +0100] <elliott> alright then
[2008-01-18 03:06:40 +0100] <pblair> (yay!)
[2008-01-18 03:06:49 +0100] <elliott> Also hip hip hooray for new HIG.
[2008-01-18 03:08:14 +0100] <elliott> My goal is to write up a design document concerning the inspector, so that as we move forward with perfecting it, more and more people can contribute.
[2008-01-18 03:08:44 +0100] <alangh> Will it be the type of inspector that will allow changes of values, or just display of info?
[2008-01-18 03:08:49 +0100] <elliott> It's taking a bit longer than expected due to the original code being crammed into a single class, and needing some seperation.
[2008-01-18 03:09:18 +0100] <alangh> :)
[2008-01-18 03:09:23 +0100] <elliott> i.e. You can change the alias of a contact in the inspector, but not their profile
[2008-01-18 03:12:08 +0100] <hal2k> will there be the possibility to add new tabs via plugins?
[2008-01-18 03:12:25 +0100] <The_Tick> that could get massive
[2008-01-18 03:12:32 +0100] <elliott> So, if you have a contact in Adium, it will be extremely easy to get them into Address book and populated with a lot of information.
[2008-01-18 03:13:07 +0100] <hal2k> that'd be great
[2008-01-18 03:13:23 +0100] <elliott> basically an array of panes needing to be loaded, and a plugin could totally add panes to it.
[2008-01-18 03:13:47 +0100] <hal2k> in what way?
[2008-01-18 03:14:21 +0100] <elliott> well if a user installs a bunch of plugins, the inspector panel will be A) needing to load a lot more content, which could get slow and B) run into issues with cramming all the icons into it's toolbar
[2008-01-18 03:14:43 +0100] <Catfish_Man> sorry I'm a bit late
[2008-01-18 03:14:44 +0100] <hal2k> apple's toolbar has a solution for this
[2008-01-18 03:14:55 +0100] <elliott> and allow a plugin to establish an IB-style collapsable view
[2008-01-18 03:15:28 +0100] <hal2k> why not?
[2008-01-18 03:15:29 +0100] <elliott> it is, just like the rest of the inspectors, a segmented control
[2008-01-18 03:15:54 +0100] <hal2k> NSToolbar allows selected toolbar items
[2008-01-18 03:16:12 +0100] <elliott> unless I'm mistaken, Inspectors aren't implemented with NSToolbar
[2008-01-18 03:16:26 +0100] <alangh> correct
[2008-01-18 03:16:47 +0100] <elliott> they use a simple segmented control, and based on the selection load a particular view or set of views.
[2008-01-18 03:17:11 +0100] <hal2k> ok, how would that plugin pane look like? just like the get info window in the Finder?
[2008-01-18 03:17:40 +0100] <elliott> No, more like the one in IB.
[2008-01-18 03:17:51 +0100] <alangh> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/art/wn_inspectorexample.jpg
[2008-01-18 03:17:52 +0100] <elliott> (That's really the only place I've seen it done like the way I envision it.
[2008-01-18 03:18:13 +0100] <elliott> although we have way less segments
[2008-01-18 03:18:21 +0100] <hal2k> finder and IB are pretty similar in this regard
[2008-01-18 03:18:39 +0100] <elliott> true.
[2008-01-18 03:18:40 +0100] <Catfish_Man> arghrhgrhg. haet spotlight
[2008-01-18 03:18:42 +0100] <edr1084> elliott: you don't still have the pic you sent me?
[2008-01-18 03:18:57 +0100] <elliott> let me snap one real quick
[2008-01-18 03:19:14 +0100] <edr1084> ahh
[2008-01-18 03:20:04 +0100] <elliott> Anyway.
[2008-01-18 03:20:51 +0100] <Catfish_Man> are we really expecting to see many plugins?
[2008-01-18 03:21:18 +0100] <hal2k> elliott: agreed
[2008-01-18 03:21:25 +0100] <elliott> Catfish_Man: Not particularly
[2008-01-18 03:21:39 +0100] <Catfish_Man> then I don't think we should put explicit UI for them all over the place
[2008-01-18 03:21:42 +0100] <elliott> certainly not completely necessary.
[2008-01-18 03:21:52 +0100] <hal2k> the tab could be hidden when no plugin is installed
[2008-01-18 03:21:54 +0100] <elliott> right, well they'd be getting one segment of the inspector for all plugins
[2008-01-18 03:22:40 +0100] <Catfish_Man> sure, but then with the (by far most common other than 0) case of one inspector-modifying-plugin, you have this pane with a list of one item
[2008-01-18 03:22:42 +0100] <elliott> This is what it currently looks like.
[2008-01-18 03:23:01 +0100] <Catfish_Man> pretty nice :)
[2008-01-18 03:23:04 +0100] <evands> The status/profile separation is really an AIMism
[2008-01-18 03:23:26 +0100] <elliott> evands: I agree, but I don't really know of what else I'd want there.
[2008-01-18 03:23:38 +0100] <evands> How about a single box?
[2008-01-18 03:23:40 +0100] <elliott> so the one that should be selected right now is actually the second icon
[2008-01-18 03:24:05 +0100] <evands> Which, if we were getting fancy, could be replaced with an address-book style area
[2008-01-18 03:24:18 +0100] <hal2k> evands: what does libpurple provide?
[2008-01-18 03:24:34 +0100] <elliott> evands: I'll play around with it, but full on status text is pretty handy
[2008-01-18 03:24:39 +0100] <alangh> evands: you can get profile from other services if you scrape the web pages  profile.yahoo.com/<username> for example
[2008-01-18 03:24:41 +0100] <elliott> a lot of people don't have status text on the CL
[2008-01-18 03:24:51 +0100] <evands> I'm not saying we shouldn't show status text!
[2008-01-18 03:25:24 +0100] <elliott> ah ok
[2008-01-18 03:25:31 +0100] <evands> hal2k: label/value pairs, provided separately, because I changed it to do so
[2008-01-18 03:25:44 +0100] <Catfish_Man> could also have a default one that accounts could subclass
[2008-01-18 03:25:46 +0100] <evands> hal2k: because I hoped we'd eventually get around to making use of the data :)
[2008-01-18 03:25:59 +0100] <hal2k> evands: then we could implement something like a table there
[2008-01-18 03:25:59 +0100] <evands> right now we just iterate through the labels/values and concoct a single string
[2008-01-18 03:26:12 +0100] <elliott> eh, that seems awkward
[2008-01-18 03:26:22 +0100] <evands> sure, though an actual table would be pretty ugly I think... 'like a table' in the sense of address book fields, I'd think
[2008-01-18 03:26:28 +0100] <elliott> right
[2008-01-18 03:26:29 +0100] <hal2k> yes
[2008-01-18 03:26:31 +0100] <elliott> well the second panel
[2008-01-18 03:26:45 +0100] <evands> alangh: We don't need to do any scraping; libpurple provides all the info
[2008-01-18 03:27:11 +0100] <elliott> looks like this
[2008-01-18 03:28:42 +0100] <hal2k> you're implementing the whole address book application there?
[2008-01-18 03:28:45 +0100] <elliott> Choose Card... brings up an Inspector-modal panel to choose an AB card using ABPeoplePicker
[2008-01-18 03:29:10 +0100] <Catfish_Man> let me screenshot what we did in sparkweb
[2008-01-18 03:29:43 +0100] <hal2k> re-implementing addressbook.app might be a big complicated
[2008-01-18 03:29:46 +0100] <elliott> we can expand the panel any which way we want to and it will animate smoothly to and from it
[2008-01-18 03:30:07 +0100] <hal2k> I'm talking about the UI, not the backend
[2008-01-18 03:30:29 +0100] <elliott> hal2k: http://skitch.com/elliott/ruit/aiinfocontroller.m
[2008-01-18 03:30:45 +0100] <evands> *nod* picking a person is straightforward with the people picker
[2008-01-18 03:31:01 +0100] <hal2k> evands: display yes, but not edit
[2008-01-18 03:31:05 +0100] <evands> when Show Card is quite straightforward?
[2008-01-18 03:31:25 +0100] <elliott> I haven't made a decision either way.
[2008-01-18 03:31:50 +0100] <hal2k> is there a view for an address book card just like the people picker?
[2008-01-18 03:31:59 +0100] <evands> I was just looking in the docs - I don't see one
[2008-01-18 03:32:05 +0100] <elliott> the only thing I've decided is that I want to be able to go from Adium (with a contact I may have previously added but not put in address book) to Address Book
[2008-01-18 03:32:07 +0100] <evands> Just API for opening a given card in AB
[2008-01-18 03:32:11 +0100] <elliott> right
[2008-01-18 03:32:30 +0100] <Catfish_Man> what if we have vcard info that isn't in AB
[2008-01-18 03:32:31 +0100] <elliott> (that's what iChat does, so I'm not going to argue there)
[2008-01-18 03:33:01 +0100] <evands> catfish_man:  We should actually be able to add that to custom fields pretty easily
[2008-01-18 03:33:42 +0100] <elliott> The biggest thing is obviously storing a custom field depending on the service the contact is using.
[2008-01-18 03:34:41 +0100] <Catfish_Man> ok; http://dscoder.com/swebtooltip.png http://dscoder.com/pane1.png http://dscoder.com/pane2.png
[2008-01-18 03:35:12 +0100] <elliott> in addition, I'd like to be able to create AB Groups from Adium groups
[2008-01-18 03:35:51 +0100] <Catfish_Man> at the moment the only other bit of info the tooltip can show is job title
[2008-01-18 03:36:16 +0100] <hal2k> elliott: don't mess with people's address book database :)
[2008-01-18 03:37:22 +0100] <evands> Personally, the devisions I want in AB / my phone aren't the same I use in Adium... but I can imagine situations that would be desirable.
[2008-01-18 03:37:40 +0100] <alangh> elliott: This sounds great, however, since the AB allows a card to be in multiple groups, you have to jump through interesting hoops to support that in the buddy list for services which do not allow a buddy to be in more than one group
[2008-01-18 03:37:41 +0100] <elliott> right, well the idea is to maybe move you closer towards that or to make it easy for you to do so
[2008-01-18 03:38:02 +0100] <Catfish_Man> evands: that strikes me as being indicative of a limitation of either adium or address book ;)
[2008-01-18 03:38:02 +0100] <hal2k> alangh: not to mention that adium doesn't support that :/
[2008-01-18 03:38:04 +0100] <elliott> alangh: right, well beyond creating the group for you, we aren't going to deal with it beyond that.
[2008-01-18 03:42:29 +0100] <Catfish_Man> elaborate on that please? I can't see it in my head
[2008-01-18 03:42:38 +0100] <hal2k> what status button?
[2008-01-18 03:42:46 +0100] <Catfish_Man> that too
[2008-01-18 03:42:47 +0100] <elliott> oh sorry right, not everyone uses regular contact list style
[2008-01-18 03:42:55 +0100] <Catfish_Man> elliott: I do
[2008-01-18 03:42:56 +0100] <evands> I often do
[2008-01-18 03:42:58 +0100] <Catfish_Man> and I still don't know what you mean 
[2008-01-18 03:42:59 +0100] <edr1084> I don't
[2008-01-18 03:43:03 +0100] <elliott> haha sorry
[2008-01-18 03:43:14 +0100] <Catfish_Man> ah ok
[2008-01-18 03:43:18 +0100] <elliott> status drop down doohicky
[2008-01-18 03:43:25 +0100] <Catfish_Man> dropdown
[2008-01-18 03:43:26 +0100] <elliott> that only evands knows
[2008-01-18 03:43:33 +0100] <Catfish_Man> how the heck would that work for metacontacts?
[2008-01-18 03:43:47 +0100] <elliott> display name is shown by default in the inspector
[2008-01-18 03:44:04 +0100] <hal2k> isn't that just for your own status?
[2008-01-18 03:44:09 +0100] <Catfish_Man> ah I see
[2008-01-18 03:44:16 +0100] <elliott> right
[2008-01-18 03:44:25 +0100] <Catfish_Man> elliott: how would you add/remove?
[2008-01-18 03:44:35 +0100] <elliott> that is one thing I haven't quite figured out.
[2008-01-18 03:45:33 +0100] <hal2k> maybe just edit?
[2008-01-18 03:45:37 +0100] <elliott> and no one has really complained
[2008-01-18 03:45:47 +0100] <Catfish_Man> also reorder
[2008-01-18 03:46:02 +0100] <hal2k> what about moving that stuff into its own tab in the inspector?
[2008-01-18 03:46:22 +0100] <elliott> doesn't really seem like 1st class UI given that most contacts in any given CL are probably not metas.
[2008-01-18 03:46:47 +0100] <alangh> hal2k: i like that idea (since 60% of my contacts are metas)
[2008-01-18 03:47:00 +0100] <hal2k> well, the eventual goal was to make every contact a meta in the new contact controller
[2008-01-18 03:47:15 +0100] <Catfish_Man> hal2k: sure, so #define meta meta with >1 contained contact
[2008-01-18 03:47:17 +0100] <evands> Yeah, reordering is important - it's a little broken in the current implementation, but prioritizing within a meta can be quite useful
[2008-01-18 03:47:19 +0100] <Catfish_Man> the UI discussion remains the same
[2008-01-18 03:47:27 +0100] <elliott> evands: noted
[2008-01-18 03:47:40 +0100] <evands> which is how meta works anyways - a meta with just 1 contained contact acts like it isn't ;)
[2008-01-18 03:47:46 +0100] <Catfish_Man> right :)
[2008-01-18 03:47:49 +0100] <elliott> or some other nifty something
[2008-01-18 03:47:52 +0100] <evands> elliott: Interesting idea
[2008-01-18 03:47:52 +0100] <Catfish_Man> personally I'd like to see more inline editing of things
[2008-01-18 03:47:57 +0100] <elliott> I picked up some neat tricks at Apple
[2008-01-18 03:48:05 +0100] <Catfish_Man> like, if you could simply expand a contact in the list NSOutlineView style
[2008-01-18 03:48:06 +0100] <elliott> so I may be able to whip something really nice up
[2008-01-18 03:48:10 +0100] <Catfish_Man> and drag stuff in, out, or around
[2008-01-18 03:48:19 +0100] <evands> elliott: I'm a little concerned that it would be an understandable UI paradigm... one doesn't usually reorder within a dropdown
[2008-01-18 03:48:32 +0100] <hal2k> I agree with evands 
[2008-01-18 03:48:50 +0100] <elliott> evands: I have this picture of an iPhone-esque slide out animation that sets up all the menu items for reordering and such
[2008-01-18 03:48:54 +0100] <evands> catfish_man: that's how Contacts (which include multiple Buddies) works in Pidgin - though I don't think you can actually use it for reordering, I just mean in terms of expanding a meta
[2008-01-18 03:49:06 +0100] <elliott> into, probably a staged outlineview
[2008-01-18 03:50:03 +0100] <Catfish_Man> which is why we have meetings :)
[2008-01-18 03:50:07 +0100] <elliott> precisely :)
[2008-01-18 03:50:56 +0100] <alangh> elliott: I think you are on the right track....  I am sure we will have more discussions as you tackle things like AB integration, but I like the concept of the Inspector UI
[2008-01-18 03:51:17 +0100] <Catfish_Man> AB integration is incredibly hard from a UI perspective
[2008-01-18 03:51:19 +0100] <elliott> thanks alangh, and yeah, my goal is to get us something really powerful and i think the inspector ui has a lot of potential.
[2008-01-18 03:51:39 +0100] <Catfish_Man> mostly because of the near-even division between people who will cut you if you merge their IM list with their address book, and people who really want you to
[2008-01-18 03:51:51 +0100] <elliott> the idea is for it to be opt-in
[2008-01-18 03:52:24 +0100] <alangh> just don't make the stupid ichat 2.0 decision and FORCE every buddy to be in your address book :-&
[2008-01-18 03:52:32 +0100] <elliott> yes, certainly not doing that.
[2008-01-18 03:52:39 +0100] <Catfish_Man> alangh and evands being examples of camp 1 ;)
[2008-01-18 03:52:40 +0100] <edr1084> puts away his blade...
[2008-01-18 03:52:45 +0100] <Catfish_Man> and edr1084 apparently
[2008-01-18 03:52:49 +0100] <edr1084> :)
[2008-01-18 03:52:55 +0100] <elliott> anyway
[2008-01-18 03:53:22 +0100] <evands> It's mostly that I have far more useful devisions in AB than I do in Adium
[2008-01-18 03:53:32 +0100] <elliott> well maybe we can help bring them into Adium
[2008-01-18 03:53:50 +0100] <Catfish_Man> elliott: ping me sometime. I have some ideas you might like :)
[2008-01-18 03:53:56 +0100] <elliott> crazy ideas + custom UI = relevations.
[2008-01-18 03:54:02 +0100] <Catfish_Man> which would be in-scope if this were a blue sky meeting, but not today
[2008-01-18 03:54:10 +0100] <elliott> for sure, i'll hit you up on that
[2008-01-18 03:54:38 +0100] <Catfish_Man> nope
[2008-01-18 03:54:46 +0100] <elliott> alright then
[2008-01-18 03:55:41 +0100] <edr1084> gbooker: would you still be interested in assisting?
[2008-01-18 03:55:58 +0100] <evands> elliott: I mtn propagated it to im.pidgin.pidgin a couple weeks ago
[2008-01-18 03:56:16 +0100] <elliott> has no idea what that means, but I'm assuming you updated it.
[2008-01-18 03:56:29 +0100] <evands> so it's basically current with the HEAD of trunk
[2008-01-18 03:56:30 +0100] <elliott> uses git.
[2008-01-18 03:56:33 +0100] <alangh> and I did not get the AIM integrated into libpurple, but I want to do the work, (and then submit a patch)
[2008-01-18 03:56:45 +0100] <elliott> alangh: something you may want to check out
[2008-01-18 03:56:59 +0100] <gbooker> edr1084: with?
[2008-01-18 03:57:03 +0100] <evands> though I can't compile libpurple right now outside the context of our build scripts on my main machine - I messed something up - so it's difficult to test
[2008-01-18 03:57:16 +0100] <elliott> apparently they give API access to A/V on Windows
[2008-01-18 03:57:23 +0100] <edr1084> gbooker: the build processes I had talked to you about before
[2008-01-18 03:57:29 +0100] <elliott> so you may be able to prod at it with a test app and get lots of good info
[2008-01-18 03:57:41 +0100] <evands> alangh: Can I make you a private repository (svn or mtn or whatever you want) on adiumx.com for until whenever you're ready to share your patch with the world?
[2008-01-18 03:57:42 +0100] <gbooker> oh yeah, that
[2008-01-18 03:57:54 +0100] <elliott> evands: that'd be great
[2008-01-18 03:57:59 +0100] <evands> I understand the desire not to have people poking at stuff that isn't ready
[2008-01-18 03:58:10 +0100] <elliott> if I could get access, I'd love it.
[2008-01-18 03:58:21 +0100] <alangh> I had a mtn repository on my mac and lost it when I moved to a new machine, and so I will just get it again and set up a new repo on the new mac....
[2008-01-18 03:58:22 +0100] <elliott> :)
[2008-01-18 03:58:26 +0100] <hal2k> evands: monotone might be a better fit when working on libpurple
[2008-01-18 03:58:41 +0100] <Catfish_Man> alangh: isn't that just repeating the pattern that led to dataloss before?
[2008-01-18 03:58:43 +0100] <hal2k> evands: just do a local branch
[2008-01-18 03:58:56 +0100] <elliott> evands: At some point I need to sit down with you and discuss how the media API will need to mesh with Adium
[2008-01-18 03:58:58 +0100] <evands> I have monotone installed on duck, but I don't know what to do to set up whatever you need
[2008-01-18 03:58:58 +0100] <alangh> thus my hate for DVCS, but that is next week's story
[2008-01-18 03:59:01 +0100] <elliott> but that's for another time.
[2008-01-18 03:59:12 +0100] <evands> as I have no admin experience with monotone
[2008-01-18 03:59:19 +0100] <Catfish_Man> alangh: dvcs doesn't *require* you to not push changes...
[2008-01-18 03:59:29 +0100] <elliott> anyhow
[2008-01-18 03:59:36 +0100] <alangh> :)
[2008-01-18 03:59:39 +0100] <edr1084> indeed
[2008-01-18 03:59:49 +0100] <elliott> hopefully augie, gbooker, and I can get everything ironed out by the end of the month
[2008-01-18 04:00:02 +0100] <alangh> good news is that my goal this week is to get mtn established and get the libpurple changes started
[2008-01-18 04:00:03 +0100] <evands> indeed.  Actually, let's use smew.adiumx.com for your repo, alan, as that way we don't have to worry about messing up the server stuff and I can just give you access to set up whatever you want there
[2008-01-18 04:00:21 +0100] <alangh> evands: I'll work with you on that
[2008-01-18 04:00:22 +0100] <gbooker> sorry, was on the phone
[2008-01-18 04:00:28 +0100] <evands> alangh: email me with your dsa or rsa public key, and I'll get you access
[2008-01-18 04:01:08 +0100] <elliott> after that, my priority is to create some patches to the gstreamer stuff we need patched
[2008-01-18 04:01:23 +0100] <The_Tick> stabs svn hard
[2008-01-18 04:01:28 +0100] <elliott> (This of course is for GTalk Audio)
[2008-01-18 04:02:02 +0100] <hal2k> why just gtalk?
[2008-01-18 04:02:08 +0100] <elliott> that's our first milestone
[2008-01-18 04:02:16 +0100] <alangh> and AIM will not be far behind
[2008-01-18 04:02:16 +0100] <hal2k> ok, but it's generic libpurple, right?
[2008-01-18 04:02:17 +0100] <elliott> anyone else?
[2008-01-18 04:02:25 +0100] <hal2k> ok
[2008-01-18 04:02:29 +0100] <elliott> but they have a concrete implementation of gtalk
[2008-01-18 04:02:46 +0100] <Catfish_Man> elliott: I believe what hal2k is asking is: "does gtalk == jingle" in this case
[2008-01-18 04:03:05 +0100] <elliott> I believe it is just gtalk.
[2008-01-18 04:03:21 +0100] <Catfish_Man> pretty sure you're wrong
[2008-01-18 04:03:25 +0100] <elliott> everything I've seen has been implemented in google.c
[2008-01-18 04:03:26 +0100] <hal2k> gtalk is not jingle
[2008-01-18 04:03:37 +0100] <Catfish_Man> hal2k: it's very close though
[2008-01-18 04:03:41 +0100] <elliott> and sean has always referred to it as just gtalk
[2008-01-18 04:03:48 +0100] <Catfish_Man> k
[2008-01-18 04:03:49 +0100] <alangh> the goal is to have jingle be the AV api for jabber, but that is just Googles submission to the world on a path towards a spec
[2008-01-18 04:03:49 +0100] <hal2k> true, it should be easy to move to jingle afterwards
[2008-01-18 04:03:56 +0100] <elliott> right
[2008-01-18 04:04:05 +0100] <hal2k> yes
[2008-01-18 04:04:16 +0100] <elliott> and so I don't imagine that Sean implemented Jingle, but rather specifically Gtalk.
[2008-01-18 04:04:27 +0100] <hal2k> yes, he's doing what he's paid for :)
[2008-01-18 04:04:31 +0100] <elliott> precisely.
[2008-01-18 04:04:33 +0100] <evands> The distance from here to Gtalk is nearly infinitely greater than the distance from Gtalk to Jingle
[2008-01-18 04:04:40 +0100] <elliott> precisely
[2008-01-18 04:04:44 +0100] <evands> If we get to Gtalk, it's trivial by comparison to be jingle-compliant :)
[2008-01-18 04:04:58 +0100] <hal2k> I think the jingle spec isn't final yet anyways
[2008-01-18 04:05:03 +0100] <elliott> so, if that's everything
[2008-01-18 04:06:01 +0100] <edr1084> will defer to evands or The_Tick if they are so willing
[2008-01-18 04:06:08 +0100] <elliott> so anyway, I think good candidates for big features for each release 
[2008-01-18 04:06:10 +0100] <evands> The_Tick: I've dealt with svndump/svnadmin a bunch. If you'll get me access to the new box and email me the login details and such, I'll look at it for a few minutes and see if anything jumps out at me
[2008-01-18 04:06:13 +0100] <elliott> 1.3 - Get Info / AB overhaul
[2008-01-18 04:06:31 +0100] <The_Tick> evands: try ssh root@growl.info
[2008-01-18 04:06:48 +0100] <elliott> 1.5 - More Group Chat stuff
[2008-01-18 04:07:02 +0100] <The_Tick> evands: I'm trying the import 1 more time
[2008-01-18 04:07:16 +0100] <evands> MSNP14 is a really minor change for us, as Adium... just a matter of libpurple being ready
[2008-01-18 04:07:23 +0100] <elliott> right
[2008-01-18 04:07:35 +0100] <evands> for sure
[2008-01-18 04:07:38 +0100] <hal2k> contact controller rewrite is going to be complicated
[2008-01-18 04:07:45 +0100] <Catfish_Man> yes
[2008-01-18 04:07:45 +0100] <elliott> i know
[2008-01-18 04:07:51 +0100] <hal2k> yes
[2008-01-18 04:07:54 +0100] <Catfish_Man> search doesn't need to depend on the contact controller, btw
[2008-01-18 04:07:58 +0100] <elliott> i'd really like to see search be doable
[2008-01-18 04:08:07 +0100] <Catfish_Man> zac has a way of doing it at the view layer where it should be
[2008-01-18 04:08:12 +0100] <elliott> Oh
[2008-01-18 04:08:23 +0100] <zac> it's very easy to do by using visibility instead of crazy new groups for it
[2008-01-18 04:08:25 +0100] <elliott> after the contact controller is rewritten
[2008-01-18 04:08:55 +0100] <Catfish_Man> elliott: wkcl :P
[2008-01-18 04:09:02 +0100] <elliott> wkcl can't be core animated
[2008-01-18 04:09:07 +0100] <Catfish_Man> css animation :)
[2008-01-18 04:09:08 +0100] <elliott> unless you can figure it out :D
[2008-01-18 04:09:17 +0100] <edr1084> Catfish_Man: don't tease me like that...
[2008-01-18 04:09:19 +0100] <elliott> anyway
[2008-01-18 04:09:23 +0100] <Catfish_Man> edr1084: what? it exists
[2008-01-18 04:09:26 +0100] <hal2k> Catfish_Man: aren't there enough problems with the message view? :)
[2008-01-18 04:09:27 +0100] <edr1084> I know
[2008-01-18 04:09:27 +0100] <Catfish_Man> bye elliott 
[2008-01-18 04:09:28 +0100] <elliott> i'll be back later!
[2008-01-18 04:09:41 +0100] <evands> elliott: cya!
[2008-01-18 04:09:47 +0100] <edr1084> bye elliott \
[2008-01-18 04:09:59 +0100] <Catfish_Man> hal2k: are there? seems to be fairly low-maintenance at the moment. There's the persistent copy-paste issues, but that's most of it
[2008-01-18 04:10:57 +0100] <hal2k> Catfish_Man: well, the O(n) insertion is one
[2008-01-18 04:11:19 +0100] <Catfish_Man> ah, right. You keep message windows open for ages
[2008-01-18 04:11:34 +0100] <hal2k> not any more, due to that issue :)
[2008-01-18 04:12:09 +0100] <proton> i keep message windows open for ages. you're one of the reasons I'm buying a new Mac Pro I tell you!
[2008-01-18 04:14:36 +0100] <edr1084> alright, so moving on I guess
[2008-01-18 04:14:52 +0100] <evands> Right.
[2008-01-18 04:15:10 +0100] <edr1084> cool
[2008-01-18 04:15:44 +0100] <evands> The blind community is thrilled with the voiceover support fixes
[2008-01-18 04:16:02 +0100] <Catfish_Man> yeah. I've gotten a bunch of IMs as well
[2008-01-18 04:16:15 +0100] <evands> ;)
[2008-01-18 04:16:45 +0100] <Catfish_Man> yeah. I need to reply to that
[2008-01-18 04:17:47 +0100] <evands> Now that iChat handles /me properly, which was one of the prominent stragglers, we could consider sending /me as plaintext again
[2008-01-18 04:17:57 +0100] <Catfish_Man> I agree
[2008-01-18 04:18:19 +0100] <evands> we might want to make that a per-account thing - query the account to see if it should be processed before or after sending - so that if, say, MSN clients typically have no idea what to do
[2008-01-18 04:18:32 +0100] <hal2k> xmpp supports /me
[2008-01-18 04:18:34 +0100] <alangh> evands: I got your proposal about each dev doing something for each release...  I think that is a good idea to keep us all involved, but I was scared at the commitment level
[2008-01-18 04:18:57 +0100] <hal2k> alangh: the main issue for me is that I don't have a say on the release cycle...
[2008-01-18 04:19:34 +0100] <zac> evands: what do you think about merging the physic plugin into normal releases? I loved it when it was standard (and always forget to re-add it, since I disable it at annoyance of the dialog)
[2008-01-18 04:19:51 +0100] <rickybuchanan> (I'm not a guy, Catfish)
[2008-01-18 04:20:00 +0100] <Catfish_Man> rickybuchanan: you're also not the one that IMed me a bunch :)
[2008-01-18 04:20:54 +0100] <edr1084> zac: I use it as well, so I too would be for it
[2008-01-18 04:21:04 +0100] <rickybuchanan> catfish: True, I harassed you on #adium. Incidentally, there's a mailing list for blind OS X users and *many* people are just about ecstatic about it - even if there's not a lot of them telling you.
[2008-01-18 04:21:07 +0100] <Catfish_Man> which should duplicate the existing dot message dot look for unmodified styles
[2008-01-18 04:21:56 +0100] <evands> alangh: The very last thing I want to do is exclude, or make people feel like they can't contribute because they can't put in X amount of time
[2008-01-18 04:22:33 +0100] <hal2k> rickybuchanan: an old rule in customer support is, that for every complaint there are ten other people that have the same issue
[2008-01-18 04:22:57 +0100] <evands> I also feel like a complete laissez faire approach is not helping any of us right now... so I'm at a loss
[2008-01-18 04:23:20 +0100] <rickybuchanan> hal2k: In terms of people who thank you for *fixing* issues, I'd guess more like 1 in 100. But yeah, poit taken.
[2008-01-18 04:23:44 +0100] <edr1084> evands: I definitely think that a more concrete system of deadlines might help to refocus a bit
[2008-01-18 04:24:07 +0100] <evands> hal2k: what do you mean about not having a sayo n the release cycle?
[2008-01-18 04:24:09 +0100] <edr1084> because yeah, I get the impression that we've all been quite scattered as of late
[2008-01-18 04:24:24 +0100] <evands> zac: I'd be fine with it in the default build; I always keep it enabled myself
[2008-01-18 04:24:41 +0100] <hal2k> most of the time I notice that a new version is out by reading the commit log containing "appcast"... that's a bit late
[2008-01-18 04:24:42 +0100] <Catfish_Man> evands: basically, I think what happened is that the team grew up and got hired, and we've got a good enough product that new people don't have itches to scratch, and aren't joining up :/
[2008-01-18 04:25:35 +0100] <hal2k> evands: for example, 1.2 release was too early for the certificate stuff... but I didn't know about 1.2 release until after the fact
[2008-01-18 04:26:00 +0100] <edr1084> Catfish_Man: so that raises a valid concern... do we need to find some "new blood" to compensate, or would firmer deadlines help to focus people enough to offset that?
[2008-01-18 04:26:19 +0100] <Catfish_Man> edr1084: I don't know
[2008-01-18 04:26:28 +0100] <evands> hal2k: 1.2 was in beta for over a month
[2008-01-18 04:26:31 +0100] <Catfish_Man> flood of responses, 0 followthrough
[2008-01-18 04:26:56 +0100] <hal2k> evands: for some reasons, the complaints only came in after 1.2 was released... seems like nobody bothered to test the beta
[2008-01-18 04:27:09 +0100] <edr1084> Catfish_Man: we had some support people stick, but yeah, not much on the dev front
[2008-01-18 04:27:09 +0100] <evands> hal2k: I posted numerous times to adium-devl regarding the status, asking for information on current issues, etc.
[2008-01-18 04:27:18 +0100] <hal2k> except me, but since I wasn't using gtalk, I didn't notice their messed up certificate
[2008-01-18 04:27:30 +0100] <zac> a lot of people seem to hate my pretty status menu :(
[2008-01-18 04:27:37 +0100] <Catfish_Man> zac: or they're loud about it ;)
[2008-01-18 04:27:42 +0100] <evands> zac: It's awesome.
[2008-01-18 04:27:48 +0100] <hal2k> zac: it's called a vocal minority :)
[2008-01-18 04:27:49 +0100] <Catfish_Man> hal2k: I was testing it, but I don't recall seeing the issue until 1.2 final
[2008-01-18 04:28:04 +0100] <hal2k> I don't think so...
[2008-01-18 04:28:13 +0100] <Catfish_Man> 'tis also possible I did see it but assumed it would get fixed
[2008-01-18 04:28:14 +0100] <evands> No, it's just that the actual problems were rare
[2008-01-18 04:28:17 +0100] <Catfish_Man> I have done that once or twice :(
[2008-01-18 04:28:17 +0100] <zac> I think the #1 fix for them is gonna be making the SI a view... opt+click = open adium, right click = contact list menu, left click = normal menu
[2008-01-18 04:28:35 +0100] <evands> you had to have a messed up cert setup, or be using this server with that JID
[2008-01-18 04:28:59 +0100] <hal2k> evands: yes :(
[2008-01-18 04:29:00 +0100] <evands> the sheet does actually come out - the icons and image are in the right place
[2008-01-18 04:29:22 +0100] <hal2k> as far as I've heard, that doesn't happen on 10.4
[2008-01-18 04:29:38 +0100] <evands> could you file a radar on it?
[2008-01-18 04:29:38 +0100] <Catfish_Man> looks longingly at 10.5.fixeverything
[2008-01-18 04:29:42 +0100] <hal2k> I'd love to make that a non-modal panel, but the API doesn't allow that :(
[2008-01-18 04:29:44 +0100] <evands> maybe apple can fix it in 10.5.fixeverything
[2008-01-18 04:29:57 +0100] <hal2k> ok, will do that
[2008-01-18 04:30:00 +0100] <evands> An editable cert trust view could be embedded in a panel
[2008-01-18 04:30:06 +0100] <Catfish_Man> evands: it's almost out; I highly doubt new radars will be going in unless they're really critical
[2008-01-18 04:30:19 +0100] <evands> sure, but 10.5.fixeverythingelse could get it
[2008-01-18 04:30:25 +0100] <Catfish_Man> heh, true
[2008-01-18 04:30:31 +0100] <hal2k> evands: there's no cert trust view, only the panel
[2008-01-18 04:31:07 +0100] <evands> hal2k: SFCertificateView
[2008-01-18 04:31:15 +0100] <hal2k> evands: that one has no trust
[2008-01-18 04:31:30 +0100] <evands> -[SFCertificateView setEditableTrust:YES]
[2008-01-18 04:31:39 +0100] <hal2k> oh, hmmm
[2008-01-18 04:31:40 +0100] <evands> "Specifies whether the user can edit the certificate’s trust settings."
[2008-01-18 04:32:00 +0100] <hal2k> well, the issue I had when I tried to use that one was that recreating the table view on top isn't that simple
[2008-01-18 04:32:23 +0100] <evands> For the record, there were 17,612 downloads of 1.2b5 and 13,772 of 1.2b7
[2008-01-18 04:32:38 +0100] <hal2k> I think it even pulls out some certificates from the keychain if necessary
[2008-01-18 04:32:39 +0100] <zac> evands: how many of 1.2?
[2008-01-18 04:33:33 +0100] <evands> 639,326 so far
[2008-01-18 04:33:47 +0100] <Catfish_Man> nice :)
[2008-01-18 04:34:00 +0100] <zac> usage # for 1.2 is up a lot this week, 1.1.4 has been holding out a while now
[2008-01-18 04:34:16 +0100] <evands> 1,336,098 downloads of 1.1.4 before 1.2 was released
[2008-01-18 04:34:30 +0100] <proton> hah, i've still got 1.1.1 at home, but I don't report any stats :-P
[2008-01-18 04:34:36 +0100] <evands> I pasted that, rather than typing it.  That's a large number.
[2008-01-18 04:35:06 +0100] <alangh> congrats on the volume of downloads!!!
[2008-01-18 04:35:36 +0100] <evands> :D
[2008-01-18 04:35:41 +0100] <Catfish_Man> holy moly
[2008-01-18 04:36:00 +0100] <evands> (That's 15,150.42 GB of data transferred... cachefly deserves a big thumbs up on that account)
[2008-01-18 04:36:33 +0100] <Catfish_Man> grumbles in Andy's direction... that could be SO MUCH lower with differential updating
[2008-01-18 04:36:56 +0100] <hal2k> once the certificate stuff is done, my next plan is to re-implement xep-115 when the discussion on xmpp-standards has settled out (it's been going again for weeks now)
[2008-01-18 04:37:17 +0100] <edr1084> hal2k: and that is...? ;)
[2008-01-18 04:37:39 +0100] <hal2k> edr1084: getting capabilities of other xmpp-clients on your buddy list
[2008-01-18 04:37:41 +0100] <evands> edr1084: duh, everyone knows what xep-115 is!
[2008-01-18 04:38:02 +0100] <hal2k> that spec has been changed twice since I implemented it in SoC2007...
[2008-01-18 04:38:08 +0100] <Catfish_Man> guh
[2008-01-18 04:38:17 +0100] <proton> like all good XMPP related things...
[2008-01-18 04:38:24 +0100] <The_Tick> hal2k: I'd leave it alone for 1 year
[2008-01-18 04:38:37 +0100] <Catfish_Man> proton: no, no, some of them stay the same but fuck up all possibility of good UI
[2008-01-18 04:38:40 +0100] <The_Tick> it'll change probably once again in six months
[2008-01-18 04:38:46 +0100] <alangh> hey folks, I GTG, but I am hoping to get parental controls for 1.2.3, but we shall see
[2008-01-18 04:38:59 +0100] <The_Tick> alangh: 1.3
[2008-01-18 04:38:59 +0100] <edr1084> 1.3 would be better
[2008-01-18 04:39:01 +0100] <The_Tick> no sooner
[2008-01-18 04:39:05 +0100] <hal2k> The_Tick: they seem to have come to some kind of consensus now
[2008-01-18 04:39:08 +0100] <alangh> ok
[2008-01-18 04:39:13 +0100] <The_Tick> alangh: but sooner the better
[2008-01-18 04:39:26 +0100] <proton> Catfish_Man: heheh :-)
[2008-01-18 04:39:27 +0100] <Catfish_Man> hal2k: heh, yeah, stpeter was basically like "ok, we're done" on the conf
[2008-01-18 04:42:51 +0100] <edr1084> evands: anything left that needs to be covered?
[2008-01-18 04:43:33 +0100] <hal2k> have we talked about 1.3 yet?
[2008-01-18 04:43:42 +0100] <edr1084> get info was for 1.3
[2008-01-18 04:43:55 +0100] <Catfish_Man> oh good. people
[2008-01-18 04:44:01 +0100] <edr1084> but we didn't discuss it in general
[2008-01-18 04:44:05 +0100] <Catfish_Man> gotta go
[2008-01-18 04:44:17 +0100] <hal2k> ok
[2008-01-18 04:44:49 +0100] <evands> Tiemframe will depend on those things... and in the meantime, I'd like to stick to the predictable schedule for point releases I mentioned on adium-devl. Will that help with your concerns about unpredictability, hal2k?
[2008-01-18 04:46:29 +0100] <hal2k> evands: just some warning on adium-devl 1-2 weeks prior to release would be good enough I guess. if there's really anything unfinished boiling, the dev responsible for it could raise objections
[2008-01-18 04:47:32 +0100] <evands> I feel very strongly that this was done for 1.2
[2008-01-18 04:48:23 +0100] <hal2k> yes, 1.2 was tagged, but some 1.1.x releases were not
[2008-01-18 04:49:16 +0100] <hal2k> evands: btw, have you looked into signing the adium binary?
[2008-01-18 04:49:16 +0100] <evands> I must be getting tired
[2008-01-18 04:49:33 +0100] <hal2k> heh
[2008-01-18 04:49:36 +0100] <evands> I believe that Peter tagged recently a couple releases which were missed
[2008-01-18 04:49:42 +0100] <hal2k> yes
[2008-01-18 04:50:13 +0100] <evands> I read the basic doc on it - it'd be a good thing.  I guess lead developer and project manager would keep the private key for signing releases
[2008-01-18 04:50:42 +0100] <hal2k> yes
[2008-01-18 04:54:09 +0100] <edr1084> so what else do we have?  anything?
[2008-01-18 04:54:39 +0100] <evands> I don't have anything else right now
[2008-01-18 04:55:05 +0100] <edr1084> here here!
[2008-01-18 04:55:26 +0100] <hal2k> evands: you have to attend more often :)
[2008-01-18 04:56:14 +0100] <evands> I'll definitely try.
[2008-01-18 04:57:02 +0100] <edr1084> night evands 
[2008-01-18 04:57:35 +0100] <edr1084> alright, well unless anyone has anything else last minute, I think we're done